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RE: Rule 13.2 - 04/08/12 6:08:49 AM
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atticusfinch
Posts: 4406
Joined: 04/15/01
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stadler was penalized for building a stance in violation of rule 13-3.
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RE: Rule 13.2 - 04/08/12 9:19:19 PM
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Professor-B.
Posts: 1935
Joined: 04/09/03
From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fnufan
In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball . . . .
Sounds very subjective for a rule. How is it decided whether a change created a "potential advantage"? Anything can create a potential advantage.
For example, today Bubba Watson removed leaves (and maybe other stuff) from the pine needles from where he was going to stand to take that incredible shot that lead to his win. Can't you say he improved his lie?
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RE: Rule 13.2 - 04/08/12 9:42:43 PM
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atticusfinch
Posts: 4406
Joined: 04/15/01
Status: online
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The word potential is used in rules design to differentiate from actual advantage. if actual advantage was part of a rule people would be on the course all day arguing about the effect of an action. However, You aren't expected to think about actual or potential advantages when applying a rule (unless the rule affirmatively says you should). The potential advantages gained by any action or inaction are what the rules drafters consider when drafting the rule. from then on the potential advantage is presumed when the rule is breached.
in 13-2 the question about potential advantage is not a metaphysical question , but a factual one. it is not subjective. did the action create a potential advantage or not? knocking down a few leaves in one case can, and in another will not. the facts have to be analyzed, not the butterfly effect.
removing loose impediments from the area where you will stand does not affect the lie of the ball several feet away. (usually) If you move a loose impediment that is under or touching the ball then you have affected the lie. (probably) bubba did not affect the lie of his ball. If anything, he affected the area of his stance, but that is allowed.
< Message edited by atticusfinch -- 04/08/12 10:05:28 PM >
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RE: Rule 13.2 - 04/09/12 1:11:12 AM
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fnufan
Posts: 1124
Joined: 06/06/05
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Professor-B.
quote:
ORIGINAL: fnufan
In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball . . . .
For example, today Bubba Watson removed leaves (and maybe other stuff) from the pine needles from where he was going to stand to take that incredible shot that lead to his win. Can't you say he improved his lie?
Whether or not Watson improved his lie, he did not breach 13-2 because
a) what he did was not listed in the forbidden actions and
b) rule 23-1 explicitly allows him to remove loose impediments.
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RE: Rule 13.2 - 04/19/12 7:10:52 PM
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professor
Posts: 10,000+
Joined: 02/18/02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Professor-B.
quote:
ORIGINAL: fnufan
.... Can't you say he improved his lie?
No, it's lie of the ball. That he did not improve.
_____________________________
“A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...but the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child.”
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RE: Rule 13.2 - 04/19/12 11:23:25 PM
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fnufan
Posts: 1124
Joined: 06/06/05
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quote:
ORIGINAL: professor
quote:
ORIGINAL: Professor-B.
quote:
ORIGINAL: fnufan
.... Can't you say he improved his lie?
No, it's lie of the ball. That he did not improve.
1) What is your point?
2) Which post # did you take my quote from?
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RE: Rule 13.2 - 04/22/12 8:24:48 PM
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professor
Posts: 10,000+
Joined: 02/18/02
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Ah... I see. For some reason my addition to a "quote" is not working properly. I was actually quoting Professor B.
I was really and only referring to the Bubba Watson shot. He did not improve the lie of the ball.
quote:
ORIGINAL: fnufan
quote:
ORIGINAL: professor
quote:
ORIGINAL: Professor-B.
quote:
ORIGINAL: fnufan
.... Can't you say he improved his lie?
No, it's lie of the ball. That he did not improve.
1) What is your point?
2) Which post # did you take my quote from?
_____________________________
“A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...but the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child.”
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