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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 6:04:28 AM
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mjleamen
Posts: 1171
Joined: 09/26/07
From: Red Deer, Alberta!!!
Status: offline
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I've never had any luck at all hitting hybrids and I have tried quite a few: KZG U-irons, Bang BOM hybrids, TEE Iron woods, TM Rescue, Nicklaus Claw, Wishon 321 and I think a couple of others. They were all smallish hybrid heads as I thought that's what I needed. I always go back to FW's because I found each of these models to be hook machines, and then when I tried to compensate for the hook by changing my swing, I could never make solid contact with them. They were all built to iron lengths with steel shafts in an attempt to maintain the control but they didn't work. I went to build a 9 and 11 wood to replace the 5 and 6 iron, but they were also both hook machines. So I'm back to a 5 iron in the bag that I have little confidence in.
I've never found a hybrid design that really worked for me
_____________________________
TK1/FS3 TT Titanium
Wishon 525F/D
Wishon 949MC 4, 5 & 7 wood
Bang Center Cut 5-LW
Heavy B3 with Tiger Super Jumbo Grip, 34"
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 7:43:29 AM
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9handicapper
Posts: 460
Joined: 09/12/09
From: South Carolina
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cpfitness
quote:
ORIGINAL: 9handicapper
quote:
ORIGINAL: grainflow
quote:
ORIGINAL: mhoffman
Any info on the SMT Avocet or the Bang O Matic hybrid head?
Bang O Matic isn't bad. Nice compact head. Chrome rings didn't bother me too much. Got a used LH club cheap on eBay, but was trying to find a matching #5 to go with my #4 and just couldn't justify the price they charge for a new one. Way overpriced as all newer Bang stuff seems to be.
I find it interesting that the boys at Bang aren't doing more discounting ... especially since it's stone cold winter all over the country, the golf market is off by 20%+ and most retailers are throwing in rebates, FW's, this and that, etc...
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Golf market is off by 20% but perhaps they aren't. Tough to say without knowing for certain. Fitness business is off but I haven't had to lower my rates at all. I don't sell on price, I sell on value. Perhaps the same is for true for bang.
With that said, the OEM's have MAJORLY dropped prices in the past year and I don't mean in a Taylor Made clearing out a driver 6 months after release, I mean Taylor Made, Nike and Callaway setting MSRP of new drivers at 299 and 399 when a year ago things were getting out of hand with $599 drivers.
>>>>> the OEM's have MAJORLY dropped prices in the past year <<<<<
Sometimes you need to step back and look at the entire picture, in your case your company is fine ... but the vast amount of fitness centers have lost 20/50% of their business and there's many who won't be here in 2011...
Same thing with the golf industry as a whole, it's just not about the golf clubs - it's golf courses, private and public ... many big name private courses are very close or have already gone BK, some have gone to semi or just plain old public style discounting programs because their members aren't paying their dues anymore ... and many golf courses have decided to go co-op with sharing advertising and maintenace costs to stay alive.
Now, add in all of the huge amounts of discounting from hotels, course play, travel programs, and it's now the least expensive time to play golf...
I've only seen 3 played in the last 8 years and I'm not knocking Bang clubs .... I'm just curious on how they can stay alive when every golf club company from Titlest to Ping is holding on with their nails.
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 10:19:04 AM
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cpfitness
Posts: 2745
Joined: 11/03/08
From: NY, NY
Status: offline
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the answer is quite simple actually. Debt. If you have it, your in trouble, if your don't, your ok. I don't have debt and I have a very low overhead business model so I'm able to easily weather the storm. Adams Golf is a great example, they have zero debt so they have made it through the economic times in good shape while the Nickents and MacGregors went under.
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 11:18:09 AM
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mjleamen
Posts: 1171
Joined: 09/26/07
From: Red Deer, Alberta!!!
Status: offline
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Maybe I will ask the question: is there a hybrid out there that sets up and performs like a FW and is not a hook machine? I like something with a similar face depth of the 949mc FW but for a hybrid not quite so large front to back so it's easy to attach out of the rough.
_____________________________
TK1/FS3 TT Titanium
Wishon 525F/D
Wishon 949MC 4, 5 & 7 wood
Bang Center Cut 5-LW
Heavy B3 with Tiger Super Jumbo Grip, 34"
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 12:33:50 PM
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jc2bg
Posts: 3616
Joined: 07/29/04
From: Beautiful NW Ohio
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I'll confess that I haven't read every page of this thread, but I hope you haven't ruled out the companion to the 949mc fairway, which is the 915fh. No way is it a hook machine, and [other than the face that wraps over the leading edge of the crown] even looks like a 949mc, just not as deep front to back. IIRC, it has about 16mm face progression to the 949mc's 22mm, compared to the usual 1-3mm offset on most hybrids. That's a significant difference in how the clubface is delivered to the ball, and unless you hook the bejeesus out of every club, including your fairway woods, the 915fh should not be a hooker for you. - JC
quote:
ORIGINAL: mjleamen
Maybe I will ask the question: is there a hybrid out there that sets up and performs like a FW and is not a hook machine? I like something with a similar face depth of the 949mc FW but for a hybrid not quite so large front to back so it's easy to attach out of the rough.
_____________________________
Do not struggle; play from your heart. (Deepak Chopra)
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 12:59:41 PM
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mjleamen
Posts: 1171
Joined: 09/26/07
From: Red Deer, Alberta!!!
Status: offline
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I would consider trying the 915F/H, except for a couple of issues i have with them.
First is the overall headweight, it's pretty light especially if I am going to try and build it to the same length as my current 5-iron. I know it has some extra ports, but I'm thinking that even then it won't get up to weight. I may have to use my powder/rat glue mix to get the weight up.
Second is the lie angle. At the spec lie angle for a hybrid, i would have to build it to 7-iron length for my TLT. I might be able to find one with the lie angle closer to my 6-iron, but the likelihood of finding one at 59deg of lie is probably slim.
Other than that, the overall design sounds and looks awesome and I'd give it a go. Any idea what they go for from wishon new (in order to find the right lie angle).
cheers,
_____________________________
TK1/FS3 TT Titanium
Wishon 525F/D
Wishon 949MC 4, 5 & 7 wood
Bang Center Cut 5-LW
Heavy B3 with Tiger Super Jumbo Grip, 34"
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 1:06:57 PM
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mjleamen
Posts: 1171
Joined: 09/26/07
From: Red Deer, Alberta!!!
Status: offline
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Oh and the other thing is: how does one cut a wood shaft down to work at an iron length? or are the 915FH supposed to be built more along the lines of a FW and not an iron?
_____________________________
TK1/FS3 TT Titanium
Wishon 525F/D
Wishon 949MC 4, 5 & 7 wood
Bang Center Cut 5-LW
Heavy B3 with Tiger Super Jumbo Grip, 34"
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 6:05:36 PM
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9handicapper
Posts: 460
Joined: 09/12/09
From: South Carolina
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cpfitness
the answer is quite simple actually. Debt. If you have it, your in trouble, if your don't, your ok. I don't have debt and I have a very low overhead business model so I'm able to easily weather the storm. Adams Golf is a great example, they have zero debt so they have made it through the economic times in good shape while the Nickents and MacGregors went under.
We're not talking about "you" or your debt ... we're talking about "Bang"...
Speaking of "Bang", I don't think I'd be banging the drum for Adams right now, they're hemorrhaging money...
Net profit margin -31.47% -1.60%
Operating margin -31.31% -1.55%
EBITD margin - -0.92%
Return on average assets -36.05% -2.11%
Return on average equity -49.26% -2.82%
Employees 144 -
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 7:04:27 PM
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cpfitness
Posts: 2745
Joined: 11/03/08
From: NY, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 9handicapper
quote:
ORIGINAL: cpfitness
the answer is quite simple actually. Debt. If you have it, your in trouble, if your don't, your ok. I don't have debt and I have a very low overhead business model so I'm able to easily weather the storm. Adams Golf is a great example, they have zero debt so they have made it through the economic times in good shape while the Nickents and MacGregors went under.
We're not talking about "you" or your debt ... we're talking about "Bang"...
Speaking of "Bang", I don't think I'd be banging the drum for Adams right now, they're hemorrhaging money...
Net profit margin -31.47% -1.60%
Operating margin -31.31% -1.55%
EBITD margin - -0.92%
Return on average assets -36.05% -2.11%
Return on average equity -49.26% -2.82%
Employees 144 -
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You are correct, but my point is that in general (not just in my business) when you don't have debt, you can sustain the down period a lot better. Every business goes through ups and downs. When you don't have ANY debt (Adams has ZERO) and cash in the bank, you are doing okay. The stats you show aren't that uncommon for just about every publicly traded company in the past year. If I had business loans payments to make every month, I'd be seriously considering lowering my training rates to increase cashflow to make sure that I could keep up with my creditors. The fact that I don't have to deal with that means I can play the waiting game and hold out to find clients that are willing to pay me what I still think is a reasonable rate for the service provided.
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/08/10 7:56:54 PM
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Theophilus
Posts: 1364
Joined: 03/09/04
Status: offline
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mjleamen, I too tend to hook hybrids. But, I have a couple of SMT Avocets they are large for hybrids particularly from heel to toe, but I found them difficult to hook even with a midweight graphite Shaft (icon fh).
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/09/10 4:54:54 AM
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Bad9
Posts: 364
Joined: 01/09/04
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mhoffman
Simple question...what is the best component hybrid head? Looking to probably get a new 18* and try a 24*.
Golfworks KE4 or the original Snake Eyes Quickstrike.
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RE: Best Component Hybrid?? - 02/09/10 10:39:49 AM
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jc2bg
Posts: 3616
Joined: 07/29/04
From: Beautiful NW Ohio
Status: offline
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You mentioned weight. The Wishon 915f/h is weighted in between the customary weights of clubs it might replace in fairway wood and iron parameters. Thus, a 21 degree 915f/h, which might replace a 7 wood or a 3 iron, is in between the weights of those two clubs at 228 grams delivered. Then, with two weight ports, it's easy to bring up to 246 grams (the usual weight for even a heavier 4 iron), plus an additional 9 gram tip weight could be used to bring it up to the weight of a 5 iron. I would think that a 3 iron/7 wood lofted club that can be weighted [without rat glue] to correspond to a 5 iron weight would be sufficient!
Cutting a wood shaft down to an iron length is a relatively simple matter of using weight conversion on a trim chart. The shaft does not "know," nor does it care, that the clubhead isn't a "real wood" or "real iron." It just knows that it's supposed to bend thus much with a certain amount of weight on the end, and that's what trim charts are based upon. Granted, wood shaft trim charts don't typically extend down into a 246-255 gram range. But in shafts with a fairly long parallel tip section, you'll normally see the trim charts extend in even progression (1/2 inch per club) down to the typical weights for a 9 wood or 11 wood, from which point it's fairly safe to extrapolate the needful trim for a clubhead weight in the 13 or 15 wood range.
Personally, I tend to build the 915f/h somewhere in the "hybrid" lengths between [say, for 21 degree] the closest fairway wood and iron to that loft. And I don't sweat the small stuff for fear the shaft will be too floppy if I don't do the full trim relative to weight. That is, if I want to build a 25 degree, if I only tip-trim for a weight more corresponding to a 4 iron, I find that the club plays fine at that trim. Not a hook monster, nor does a reasonably stout wood shaft trimmed 3 inches or so play like a wet noodle. Ymmv, especially if you're a bruiser of a swinger.
Lie I can't help you with, but again, my perception is that in hybrids, you might be getting too worked up about lie, because the wide sole makes it quite easy to hit solid shots from the turf even if the lie is "off" several degrees from what you'd consider perfect. You just don't get the heel or toe dig with a broad-soled hybrid that you'd get with, say, a blade iron. This is, of course, part and parcel of hybrid clubheads being so much more forgiving than irons. Even with so-called perfectly fit lies in a set of irons, the golfer still encounters with regularity lies that are themselves "non-standard." So what happens when the ball is lying on a 10 degree slope and you want/need to hit a perfectly straight shot? I'm just saying.... I have my own bending machine for irons, and I find that whereas lie is quite important to my success when I'm playing an iron, I never have to touch lies [or even worry about them] in hybrids or woods and do great with those clubs. To me, lie in a hybrid would be a non-issue if it were off 5 degrees from what I'd consider perfect on a perfectly flat piece of turf. I'd be confident, that is, that I could still hit a virtually perfect shot with that very imperfect lie in the club, due to the nature of the clubhead's construction. My $.02. - JC
quote:
ORIGINAL: mjleamen
Oh and the other thing is: how does one cut a wood shaft down to work at an iron length? or are the 915FH supposed to be built more along the lines of a FW and not an iron?
_____________________________
Do not struggle; play from your heart. (Deepak Chopra)
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