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Beyond belief - 05/19/08 9:17:20 PM
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golfrules
Posts: 2
Joined: 05/30/07
Status: offline
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Hello All,
Only my first post here. Have read the boards for some time but never felt the need to post until now. I came across the Master Key when searching this site for the left arm. I was a skeptic, as I have just about every tape, training aid, and golf improvement product out there. I have also been to 2 top name schools and have taken so many lessons I feel I should have bought stock in the PGA. One golf school was great and I know all the teaching pro's I have encountered were great at what they do and were good people also. There was just something missing. So just as my modis operandi has been in the past, I fell prey to the Master Key book. I read it with a club in my hand and as soon as I got to the key I went to the garage and started with chips and worked my way up to the full swing and was killing the ball. Being that I could only see the ball fly 8 to 10 yards into the garage I did not know what the ball flight was doing. I did notice that the ball always jumped off the net to the right. I thought that was weird as it always jumped off to the left before. I had no clue until I took this new swing to the range that the reason I the ball was popping off to the right was I was putting draw spin on the ball (I am a right handed golfer...used to be a right handed hacker). I can't believe how hard and pure I can hit the ball using the idea of the entire shoulder. It makes everything else in the swing happen; weight shift, back to the target, hinge and un-hinge, ball go far. When I put my right hand into it I can really crank one with a driver. I am talking about 270 of carry with a 5 yard draw. If I overdo it I get a 15 yard draw but boy it goes far!
I am really beyond belief at how much information is in this little book and how easy it is to apply. I have read many who bashed this book and people who have posted about it. If everyone who did is shooting 70-75, I would say you have good reason to do so. If you were shooting 80-90 like me, not a good idea. I played in two scrambles using this key and absolutely killed the ball. My buddies think I had an out of body trip or something. This method really works for me. Oh. the author also has a 100% money back policy just like all the big named videos on the golf channel, and it's only six bucks. Believe me, this guy is not getting rich off this book at 6 clams a pop. I feel like my body is being used as a bow and boy am I killing the ball. You can chip and pitch with the key also. He claims you can put with it but I am not going to change my putting stroke as I am a pretty good putter already.
If you are struggling and don't have something that you can do everytime and get a great result, I would give this s try. Everytime I use the key I get dreamlike shots. When I feel the forget and use only my left arm (which is what I used to use for power before) I get crud.
I know there will be those who feel this is a pump or not believe for some other reason. Like I said if you are shooting in the 70's already, I think you are right. For me, tee to green is a given now as it has never, every been before. I was a pretty good hack before this but now I am a golfer. For those who don't believe give it a try. The worst that can happen is you are out six bucks for a week before you get a refund back.
A reformed skeptic,
Tom
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/20/08 4:29:17 AM
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tngolf22
Posts: 55
Joined: 12/19/07
Status: offline
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I could never bash a $6 book. I'm a 70s shooter and I also hit a pretty solid 5 yard draw (more like 230 carry, not 270!) but I'm always trying to find that key for a better transition move.
You mention the idea of "using the entire shoulder". I've always tried to find a key which starts the downswing with the lower body. The Mike Austin pivot, Rover's knee action, and the transition move described in Swing Like a Pro are all great keys and I learn a little more each day. How does using the entire shoulder help with the weight shift? I'm curious.
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/20/08 1:54:20 PM
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JamesBurg
Posts: 389
Joined: 12/25/05
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tngolf22
I could never bash a $6 book. I'm a 70s shooter and I also hit a pretty solid 5 yard draw (more like 230 carry, not 270!) but I'm always trying to find that key for a better transition move.
You mention the idea of "using the entire shoulder". I've always tried to find a key which starts the downswing with the lower body. The Mike Austin pivot, Rover's knee action, and the transition move described in Swing Like a Pro are all great keys and I learn a little more each day. How does using the entire shoulder help with the weight shift? I'm curious.
Here is a quote from the website http://www.golfswingmasterkey.com that might help you understand how keying on the lead shoulder can make your other body movements automatic.
"The master swing key triggers subconscious anticipation, the same thing that controls your body movements in the baseball swing, tennis, or anything else that requires body/arm synchronization. The reason that the golf swing needs a key to trigger subconscious anticipation is because of the extension that must be maintained in the golf swing."
Although some lower body keys can work fairly well if you practice enough, what you really need is something that will make all of your body movements lead your arm swing perfectly every time.
_____________________________
Par when I practice...10 over when I don't...
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/21/08 7:57:41 PM
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golfrules
Posts: 2
Joined: 05/30/07
Status: offline
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tngolf22,
I must admit that I used to be a fan of the lower body starting the swing...but no more. The 5 fundamentals by Sir Hogan used to be my bible (Still in my top 2 LOL and please understand this is said with no disrespect to Mr Hogan. It is just that at the point in his career when he wrote this book, he was trying to rid himself of the snap hook. He found that weakening his grip and starting the swing with the lower body did this. For this reason and this reason alone, I feel starting with the hips will really hurt those who don't know how to release the club). It is great information for the basics; grip, stance, arm etc. However, I feel it is only great information in terms of body motion for advanced golfers. For those those new to the game who slice and those who have been playing for some time and slice, the hips moving first is not going to help. They need to first learn how to release the club. Without knowing how to release the club they will see even worse results by trying to start with the hips, or knees, or right foot.
For you tngolf22, since you already shoot in the 70's, and no doubt know how to release the club, maybe starting the body helps ensure that you will not hit a snapper. I've tried the Austin trombone, the Hibbert swing from the top, the AJ remote flipping, Rovers knees, S.L.A.P.'s transition, and two many gagets to name. Lets just say that if I put them all people may think Mars was invading!
Those did not work for me. To answer your question about the shoulder, using it the way the author says to makes me feel like my body is a bow and it propels my arms, but not the way Hogan talked about the hips doing so in his book. It's more like a downward action than a round about action. I now know why Tiger's head drops during his downswing; it's the proper left shoulder movement. It makes everything else happen automatically. My weight shifts, my hips clear, I post up on my left side, and then I chase the ball to the target with my right hand (this chasing I learned not from this book but from Tiger's book entitled "How I play golf"). When I use the key it makes everything else just happen and I have not the faintest clue as to why this is. It's like throwing a ball to me now. When I throw a ball my weight moves in the direction of the throw (if I am in the outfield I take a little crow hop first), my body turns and drops down to the left and all because I am trying to throw the ball with my right arm and hand. Everything else just gets out of the way for some anatomical reason I guess. I feel the same thing with my swing now. Working the shoulder just gets everything else a-workin' right. It makes the hip bump and turn at the right time for me also.
I don't know if anyone else out there was like me but when I hit my last ball and it was crud, I always started looking for another under the ball machine for a ball, or found one that a caring soul left just for those like me who did not or could not get another bucket and needed to hit just one more to leave on a good note. I am reformed now and need no medication. People at the range stop and watch me rip the cover off the ball and then pull out a wedge and hit a low shot that hits once and grabs the green like crooks grab the front of a police cruiser. If they ask I tell them, if not I must say I have picked up a little narcissistic trait. It feels good to be one of the ones that has a good swing; kinda like performing on stage in from of a crowd. It's exhilarating, and only cost me six bucks!
Now not to put the cart in front of the horse, when I last played I smashed the ball tee to green. Hit 12 out of 14 fairways and one I missed was because I should have hit a 3 wood of the tee, instead of my driver, and went into the water on 18....straight down the pipe but ran out of fairway and into the drink. I hit every green in reg but one but still walked away with a 76. The name of the game is putting and imagination on the green. I three putted 4 times and am reconsidering my self described good putter status.
Not sure when I will be back since golf is great now. If the method fails me I will be sure to come back and post. Thanks to all for running such a great board and to all the big wigs that take the time to answer questions and share what they know about the swing.
Tom
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/22/08 6:51:38 AM
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Squish
Posts: 310
Joined: 10/11/04
Status: offline
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Ok
Any great swing is built around left shoulder action, problem is most do not know what the left shoulder "Is".
It is almost the entire left torso.
Mike Austin states emphatically, in austionology, that the left shoulder pect connection is the "Constant".
That, the Focus on this connection must be there or you cannot play good golf.
Sam Byrd who roomed with Hogan related this when he learned this Power and control secret from Babe Ruth.
Vjay does it.
I do it to hit 150 yd 7 irons single left handed in my practise warm up.
It is leverage, and as MA states the lower body is a secondary force to that action.
Bobby Jones states the left side turn or pull is the secret in the transition to good golf once you clear the hip.
Carnoustie's Stewart Maiden says you bring the arms down fron the top using the left side, "shoulder" once the hips have cleared
Tommy Armour the same.
Now some one else say's it and it is believed to be the secret again. Go Figure.
About five years ago while playing a round I was on a 317 yrd hole, and had been pushing my drives, after 8 holes I was fed up.
I decided to just swing away and do what came naturally, just swing out at the ball and whip through.
What I discoverd was exceptional feel for the timing of the swing, syncing my upper body to lower body, the feeling
of the transferance of weight from the rear foot to front foot was automatic.
That is when I learned how small a motion the natural Bump was.
I discovered my ball on the green 10 feet from the hole, the shot was a tight draw.
I was able to apply this timing to the short game also.
The left shoulder, left ear, left instep, left is and must be the constant in any swing to maintain consistancy.
I'm in If there is yet another book re-enforcing the message, so some finally gets it I'm in.
I ordered it.
_____________________________
We can use techniques in modifying things, in controlling things, but the first impulse has to be something
that you simply cannot make just out of technique, or else it becomes perfectly evident that it is nothing but technique that you're exercising
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/22/08 6:54:32 AM
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tngolf22
Posts: 55
Joined: 12/19/07
Status: offline
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Thanks GolfRules and Squish for your thoughts!
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/22/08 8:35:15 AM
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Squish
Posts: 310
Joined: 10/11/04
Status: offline
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TNgolf22
Here is that Stewart Maiden thing:
"After the club is taken back for a full shot, or for any
shot with power in it, the important point is to start the
downward swing properly. This is done by starting the
left hip and the left shoulder together, drawing down
the arms with the hands practically in the same position
as at the top of the swing until they are about the
hip level. There is where the real "hit" begins, and at
that stage the left hip has been sent forward along the
line of the shot, establishing tension through all the left
side of the body; the right knee is beginning to knuckle
in toward the ball, and the right heel is rising from the
ground. If you will take this position, as shown in the
picture, you will feel the tension and the sense of power
and a certain readiness for the hands to whip the club
through with the wrists turning over automatically Of
course you cannot think of all these things during a
stroke. But you must start working it out by leading
with the left hip, for without its movement along the
line of the shot, and the resultant "sling" and snap imparted
to the stroke as the ball is taken, there can be no
such thing as a powerful, long, or perfect golf shot".
"the right knee is beginning to knuckle
in toward the ball, and the right heel is rising from the
ground".
I read this as the lower body is reactionary to maintain balance.
The left side "Tension" is maintaining the load.
The Shoulder is rising to slap the ball with the back of the hand.
The snap of the towel move I write about.
If you can let the lower body react to the upper you got it in spades.
_____________________________
We can use techniques in modifying things, in controlling things, but the first impulse has to be something
that you simply cannot make just out of technique, or else it becomes perfectly evident that it is nothing but technique that you're exercising
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/22/08 2:01:22 PM
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1puttEagle
Posts: 14
Joined: 12/31/07
Status: offline
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Sir Squish,
I'm interested to hear your opinion of the eBook. I always look forward to your posts, and you've given me great advice on that other forum where my handle is 2puttBirdie.
My experience with this eBook: after practicing the Mike Austin method first via Dan Shauger, then GIMI and Mike Dunaway, I have to say that this eBook put it all together for me. By that I mean that when I focus on the left shoulder and using its motion as the swing key, all the other pieces just fall into place. I can hear the difference when I swing my clubs in the living room, for my 'normal' swing and my Master Key swing. I don't think they look very different, but when using the Master Key all the other pieces just support what my body should be doing in the right sequence.
Finally, after a long winter off and then getting blocked by my girls t-ball and softball, I will be playing some golf this weekend. So we shall see if the control is there.
And I do maintain the pec-grab, per your advice. I also use the Shauger hand action, so I hit it a ways.
I look forward to your feedback on the book.
Thanks,
1putt
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/22/08 2:48:54 PM
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JamesBurg
Posts: 389
Joined: 12/25/05
Status: offline
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Two good posts, Squish.
Yes, my lower body reacts perfectly to left shoulder control. I never think about my lower body. I think this happens because this is a backhanding action. That is something that the brain understands and will control subconsciously, making it perfect every time.
_____________________________
Par when I practice...10 over when I don't...
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/23/08 7:08:35 AM
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tngolf22
Posts: 55
Joined: 12/19/07
Status: offline
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Great stuff guys,
Do all of you maintain the pect grab (left tricep connected to pectoral muscle) throughout the entire swing? I used to do this but the last couple of years I let the left arm separate a little at the top of the swing. I felt maintaining the pect grab caused my swing to be too flat but if I keep my shoulders on plane will that prevent the backswing from getting too flat?
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/23/08 10:44:00 AM
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Squish
Posts: 310
Joined: 10/11/04
Status: offline
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Sir 1putt
Good stuff! A must read for all golfers.
What this does in my opinion, is put the swing in its proper sequence.
You cannnot lose the timing, its almost fool proof.
The compound pivot, when performed properly does the same thing.
Putting your focus on the result of that action ensures that the job gets done.
You Sir 1putt, with your release and you knowledge of kinesiology, puts you head and shoulders above anyone using the method.
It's spooky how he came upon it, just like my ah ha! moment in my previous post.
But He took it a lot farther in disecting where it stems from.
I think this is gonna be Fun!
_____________________________
We can use techniques in modifying things, in controlling things, but the first impulse has to be something
that you simply cannot make just out of technique, or else it becomes perfectly evident that it is nothing but technique that you're exercising
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RE: Beyond belief - 05/23/08 12:16:35 PM
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PerfectImpact
Posts: 3477
Joined: 10/24/02
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tngolf22
Great stuff guys,
Do all of you maintain the pect grab (left tricep connected to pectoral muscle) throughout the entire swing? I used to do this but the last couple of years I let the left arm separate a little at the top of the swing. I felt maintaining the pect grab caused my swing to be too flat but if I keep my shoulders on plane will that prevent the backswing from getting too flat?
Raising the left arm doesn't separate it inappropriately from the grab from the pec. If your arms do swing higher because that fits your body better, any "separation" you think you experience is nullified as the downswing gets under way, since the arms DROP; they do not go out and around. When they do drop, the pec reengages the tricep of the left arm and it then gets driven by the pivot, just as though it had never left in the first place.
Not everyone can swing with the flatness that it appears some Austin fans prefer. All swings are hybrids in some degree. But the principles remain. Emphasis is what changes - proportional differences in the participation of rotation vs. arms swinging down (chopping).
_____________________________
George Hibbard
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